Comments on: Thousands of Turks Apologize to Armenians

By: J.A.

J.A. — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 03:41:20 +0000

I have a “Bridge to nowhere” to sell to you people, if you think that Turkey is going to give a piece of its land to Armenia, or carve out a piece of its land to create a Kurdish Government within its present borders.
But, keep on dreaming…. is all I can say.

By: Hayaser

Hayaser — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:18:05 +0000

apology schmology, it dont mean anything, ‘they’ think by few of them coming out in public or internet public hidding behind computers/user names in their homes trying to apologize so anonymously that it will ‘ease’ our pain & suffering. in the end of alll this its BULLSHIT. they doing it to try to give themselves a “kinder” image so that they are not so looked down upon by neighbors alike. apology wont do shit….

WE WANT OUR LANDS BACK AND WE WANT IT NOOOOOOOOW
OH AND 100 BILLION DOLLARS WOULDN’T HURT EITHER

By: Raffi

Raffi — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 07:44:55 +0000

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/asia/29quake.html

A link to an article about a recent China quake – 5 million people left homeless… again illustrating my point that moving a million people is not inconceivable in this day and age. Large chunks of land were traded after WWII by Russia, Poland, Germany… so I think it’s not only possible, but some land transfer is only fair and to be expected…

By: Raffi

Raffi — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:26:14 +0000

I disagree with most of what you guys are saying, from the very base assumptions that your arguments start with to the final conclusions you draw. I don’t know how much of it I can address in this space, but let me take a stab at it.

Ruben: Land reparations are absurd? Inconceivable? Let me ask you a few questions about this. Did you predict the fall of the USSR? The massive incursions into peoples rights in the USA after 9/11? The socialization of huge chunks of the US economy this fall? The first black US president in 2008? If you did, I’ll reconsider your opinion of what is inconceivable. The rest of your note about how we need to stop making land claims so that “Turkish society can accept their history” is actually rather absurd to me. I am not selling out what my ancestors went through, and then my parents and me in exile in order to help Turks accept their history. I’m doing it for justice. And justice is not an “oops, did I do that?” a century later, it’s in the form of compensation… or else, they’re not really sorry, are they? I’m quite sick of the victims being expected to baby the aggressors here.

Onnik: I disagree with your (and Rubens) premise that Turks/Kurds would not be moved during land reparations. Of course they’d be moved. It would be like accepting the horse of Troy to take large swaths of populated lands, so obviously nobody is talking about that. If 1 million Chinese were moved to make way for a new dam, then a million Turks/Kurds could be moved as well by their government to right a huge historical wrong. I don’t know of anyone talking about invading Turkey, either. That’s not really reparations. Saying that Diasporans wouldn’t move to those lands given back is like saying that someone who’s car is stolen shouldn’t be given his car back when the culprit is brought to justice, since the owner was forced to buy a new one. Reparations are what they are, property owed. If nobody moves there and it’s a big national park, that’s just fine with me. If Armenians want to lease it back to Turkey, hey, that’s fine too. If that property includes a black sea coastline instead of say a Lake Van coastline, I suspect some Armenians will move there – and MANY Hayastantsis are descendants of the genocide, so again, let’s not draw a Diaspora-Hayastantsi barrier where it doesn’t exist. If Hayastantsis move there, that’s the same thing.

Onnik, I also hope for peace, and open border, etc. But not at any cost. All that will change with an open border is that contact between Turks and Armenians will be facilitated, Tourism (especially to Turkey) will get a boost, and the price of Turkish goods will drop in Armenia, and possibly, the price to export goods out of Armenia will drop. That’s all nice, but I think recognizing the borders in return for that is not the right thing to do.

Anyway, none of this is up to us, so let’s see what unfolds in 2009… 94 years after the genocide began.

By: Joseph

Joseph — Sun, 28 Dec 2008 04:09:56 +0000

Ruben, I agree with your post 100%.

By: Onnik Krikorian

Onnik Krikorian — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:48:23 +0000

Well, let me put it like this, if land was given back, Armenia would absorb a greater number of Turks and Kurds. None of them are going to be forced to move. Moreover, any talk of land reparations is more likely to result in resistance to recognizing the Genocide inside Turkey. Of course, some Armenians think they will one day be strong enough to invade Turkey, but with the second strongest army in NATO one severely doubts that.

Some token land returns — church property, perhaps. Anything else is unlikely to happen. Besides, one doubts many ethnic Armenians abroad will swap urban life in the more developed world for a village or town in the poverty-stricken east. Anyway, I applaud the move by the Turkish signatories although also understand that resistance to it will be stronger now among the nationalists. That, perhaps, is the most concerning aspect of all of this.

Meanwhile, some were talking of the border opening in 2009 or 2010 without preconditions. It remains to be seen whether this will happen or not, but for sure it won’t unless Armenia recognizes the present-day borders of its more powerful and strategically important [to the West] neighbor. Interestingly, if it were to happen, some diplomats believe considerable pressure would be on Azerbaijan to genuinely speak of compromises on their part in the Karabakh negotiations.

Here’s hoping, but I won’t be placing any bets.

By: Ruben

Ruben — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:37:55 +0000

The very notion of land reparations is absurd. There is no conceivable way that Turkey or even a single one of its 60 million people will be willing to give away an inch of territory, just as there is no conceivable way Armenia would be able to handle an extra inch of territory. This is of course without even considering the five million Kurds that live on the lands in question, whose complete exclusion from these debates is baffling. The whole business of territorial reparations is rotten and quite frankly completely counter-productive. If we expect the Turkish people and subsequently their government to come to terms with what happened, we as Armenians need to show some reason. The fear of these very land reparations are the number one tool of anti-Armenian propaganda and the main obstacle to allowing the Turkish society to accept their history. The diaspora must show some flexibility while the Armenian government must show a basic willingness to govern for the sake of their nation, rather than their pocket. Until we improve on those two fronts, any real breakthrough in Turkey-Armenia, safe and sensible for Armenia, cannot be achieved

By: Raffi

Raffi — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 05:30:29 +0000

Onnik – none of us know what form the reparations will take, but I think if you keep repeating there will be no land given back, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. That you think “most” Hayastantsis are happy with an apology is something I would believe when a reliable poll said so… otherwise, it’s a simple matter of “asumen”, and I’m just not convinced. The mantra that the Diaspora feels different about the genocide I think already has been shown to be a false assumption by some polls.

I’m still hoping for recognition by April 24, 2015…

By: R

Thu, 25 Dec 2008 13:20:09 +0000

There are interesting things happening in Turkey but when the President sues another politician for saying he has Armenian blood you know the place has a way to go.

By: Onnik Krikorian

Onnik Krikorian — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:55:57 +0000

Well, interesting indeed, but what is “making things right?” For sure, there will be no territorial reparations perhaps with the exception of some token and symbolic church property. Otherwise, aside from financial compensation or favorable customs and transit fees, I don’t see much happening. Indeed, most Armenians here just would like recognition and the border open.

Anyway, for sure something is happening with some local officials and Turkish journalists I’ve met in the past two weeks saying the border could be opened in 2009-10. On the other hand, both realize that open discussion in Turkey can also push the nationalists into action. Sure, the same is true here and in the Diaspora, but it is the nationalists in Turkey that pose the greatest threat, perhaps, as Hrant Dink’s murder showed.